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JOHANNA DAVID, Faculty Member at Hofstra Law School is with us to talk about three estate planning mistakes and how to avoid them.
Johanna is a Trust and Eetates lawyer, and a partner at Fruchelli, Deegan, and Toronto. She’s also the adjunct professor of law at Hofstra University. We’re going to talk a little bit about mistakes that we see in state planning and the simple things you can do to keep them away from your situation. Enjoy.
Three Estate Planning Mistakes Chapters
00:00 The Importance of Estate Planning
09:47 Common Mistakes in Estate Planning
19:54 Understanding Trusts and Their Benefits
24:00 Navigating Elder Care and Estate Planning
Outline of “Three Estate Planning Mistakes”
Frazer Rice (00:01)
Welcome aboard, Joanna.
Johanna C. David (00:03) -Three Difficult Planning Stories and What Can We Learn?
Hi, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.
Frazer Rice (00:06)
Well, happy to have you on because we are now, most people sort of put their estate planning off toward the end of the year, but I have a feeling given where the legislation is going, et cetera, that the crush is going to happen earlier than we think. In the meantime, you and I were talking beforehand about some mistakes that people make from an estate planning perspective and that they’re very avoidable. I thought we’d take this opportunity to go into that a little bit.
In your practice, maybe let’s start with a couple of, or sort of the big ones that you see, ⁓ give us some ideas of some mistakes that people make that really should be avoidable.
Johanna C. David (00:48) – Structure and Other Planning Tactics
Sure, absolutely. So the number one mistake that I think that people make is not having the proper estate planning documents. I see this happen time and time again. I don’t know if it’s because of the stigma. People are afraid to approach estate planning, right? Sometimes it makes your mortality very real. But the biggest estate planning mistake is not having the right documents.
Everyone, everyone, I cannot stress, everyone needs to have at least a will, a power of attorney, and a healthcare proxy. And there are people that say, well, you know, I don’t really have much, I don’t need to do that, or ⁓ everything’s gonna go directly to my husband and my children anyway. You know, that’s how it works. But that’s not exactly the case, right? You and I both know.
So, especially if you have young children, young couples definitely want to have those things in place. You want to think about who is going to be the guardian for your child or your children if both of you pass away. And a lot of people don’t think about that. And those only cause problems in the long run. I’ll give you a quick example if we have time. But ⁓
Frazer Rice (02:02)
⁓ please do.
Johanna C. David (02:03) – Long Term Planning Issues and Avoiding Problems
I remember, this was several years ago. I must have just started practicing and I had been a young attorney. So it was about 15 years ago and a woman came into the office and she and the decedent had been living together for about 30 years. They held themselves out to be married. Now, Frazer, you and I both know that New York does not recognize common law marriage.
Frazer Rice (02:30)
This is true.
Johanna C. David (02:32) – Correcting a Big Will Mistake
She was not aware of that. And so they were married for 30 years. Everything was in his name or excuse me, they were not married. They were together for 30 years, held themselves out to be married, not legally married. He owned the co-op apartment. Everything was in his name. Now he had a daughter from a previous marriage, legal marriage that was a strange.
And you guessed it, our client did not get along with the daughter. So the father dies and guess who inherits the co-op that this woman has been living in for over 20 something years, right? And who inherits all of this man’s assets. It ends up being the daughter and the woman is out.
Frazer Rice (03:09)
It’s not the intent.
Johanna C. David (03:13) – The Price of Neglect and Other Costs of a Mistake
Right, exactly, not the intent. And you know, this man didn’t have a will. He did not have a will. Again, there are so many myths out there about estate planning. You know, this woman was under the impression that, hey, you know, we’re common law married. If he passes away, if I pass away, everything will go to each other. That’s not the case. So I always remember that case. I always give people that example because it’s so important to have a will.
Frazer Rice (03:38)
The other part too on that is that the poor person who has to administer that estate has to go through the court and all that. You’re not doing your executor any favors by not having a will. And, you know, there isn’t technically an executor in that case, but someone’s left to clean up that mess.
Johanna C. David (03:45)
Yeah, the administrator has to clean up the mess and it’s not an easy thing, believe it or not. It’s funny because this week I had a client come in and this one is a little interesting, but I’m going to, you know, just stay with me because it gets a little hairy. OK.
Frazer Rice (04:09)
Gosh.
Johanna C. David (04:11) – Difficult Phone Calls
It gets a little hairy. When I teach at school, cases like this, I like to draw out on the board. So I hope that our listeners can kind of follow a little bit. A woman comes in and she tells me that her cousin died. OK? This man died in, I believe, 2012. Up until his death, she was his power of attorney. OK? Another myth. People don’t realize power of attorney dies with you.
Okay, she’s no longer the power of attorney. He died in 2012. She was the power of attorney. He was a widow, a widow were rather. His wife had predeceased him. He had no children. She’s a cousin, but they’re very close. She’s the power of attorney. All of a sudden, and I don’t know how this happened, she figures out that there is a fidelity account that has about 300,000 numbers in it.
What now?
She’s like, well, you know, what do I do? I asked if he had a will. Of course, he didn’t have a will. So I explained to her that, you know, we have to go through what is called an administration proceeding. And I tried to figure out his family tree. He had no children, his wife pre-deceased. He was survived by a brother. For example, for this example, let’s call the decedent Will. William will call him. Will and his brother- let’s call him Dave. So Will was survived by Dave.
Right after Will dies, Dave dies. Dave also didn’t have children but was married and had a stepdaughter. So Dave dies, right? As it’s go to Dave’s wife. Dave’s wife dies right after him. I know, it’s crazy. So now Dave’s wife dies. Dave’s wife has one daughter, okay? She dies. I’m not making this up, I promise.
Frazer Rice (05:43)
My gosh. Tell us where they live so we can avoid it.
Johanna C. David (06:01) – Complication
So daughter dies, okay? So now, so the brother, Dave, his wife, his stepdaughter, they all die. Daughter had no children, okay? Whose daughter’s next of kin?
Frazer Rice (06:18)
You’ve lost me, if you go back up, I think there’s a stepdaughter in there somewhere.
Johanna C. David (06:22) – Tracing the Lineage
Right, so that’s daughter. Her next of kin would have been her biological father. So guess who’s entitled to the assets? So let me bring it all back for our listeners. Basically, Will’s assets, so Will died. His assets will end up going to his sister-in-law’s ex-husband.
Frazer Rice (06:28)
Right. gosh and they may not have ever met.
Johanna C. David (06:49) – The Family Tree
Correct. All because if, again, none of these people had wills, and when you don’t have a will, you know, New York State basically writes one for you. And those are called the laws of intestacy. The laws of intestacy determines what happens when someone dies, who inherits, who are their heirs. So we have to follow the family tree. It’s very unfortunate. I had to explain to this woman that the truth of the matter is, yes, we needed to administer all these people’s estates.
But then at the end of the day, assuming that this man is alive, which we think he is, right, he will be entitled to the assets. Imagine getting that phone call, Frasier.
Frazer Rice (07:28)
And not only getting that phone call, but then having to make that phone call when you find this all out. And then part of that too is, some people, and it’s easy to get confused, is that you have beneficiary designations. So the fidelity account, guess in theory, could have also been designated, but that doesn’t sound like that happened either.
Johanna C. David (07:49) – Beneficiary Designations
All right. There was no beneficiary designation. So you’re right, he could have had a will or he could have at the very least if he was very close to his cousin, you know, she was taking care of him. She was power of attorney and healthcare proxy. He could have at least had her as a beneficiary, which he didn’t.
Frazer Rice (08:07)
Well, as I tell people, ⁓ yes, the beneficiary designation is useful and powerful, but don’t let that act as a substitute for a will because there are going to be other things going on in your estate, most likely.
Johanna C. David (08:19) – Dealing with Institutions
Yeah, absolutely. And sometimes people put beneficiary designations. They forget all about it. And then they pass away. So I have seen beneficiary designations that might have been a parent, right? Maybe you had this account since you were young and you were not yet married or had children. And so you put your parent on the account, you know? Now you pass away. Maybe your parent has passed, but now the assets may end up going to, you know, who knows? ⁓ And ex-wife, right? And ex-wife and ex-husband, exactly.
Frazer Rice (08:43)
An ex-wife ⁓ or… ⁓
Johanna C. David (08:48)- Having Everything Line Up
And so, ⁓ yes, so wills and beneficiary designations, extremely important. ⁓ Powers of attorney, very important. People often wait, you know, until it’s too late. If you don’t have a power of attorney, then when you are incapacitated, there’s no one that can act for you. People are under the impression that, well, if I’m married or I have kids, these people will be my power of attorney, right?
Automatically. It doesn’t work that way. You know, unfortunately, my hardest… conversations are with families, you know, that I have to explain like, I’m sorry, at this point, we can’t do a power of attorney for somebody that’s incapacitated, right? They can’t sign a power of attorney. And then you’re in the world of guardianship, which is not a nice proceeding. You know, you and I both know it’s expensive, it’s long, you know, drawn out. Everybody gets paid.
Frazer Rice (09:39)
And there’s a structure around it that doesn’t make decision making easy. So if you have to make fast decisions, that’s not a great place to be either.
Johanna C. David (09:47) – Proxies and Why They’re Important
Exactly, you have to go to court, you know, so powers of attorney are also very important and health care proxies. Again, people think, I don’t need to sign a health care proxy or I signed it when I went to the hospital. Those are normally for that instance or that procedure, right? It will terminate. So you need to have a health care proxy that says, hey, if I am ever incapacitated, this person can make medical decisions for me. I don’t know if you remember, Frazer, and I may be. dating myself a little bit, but do you remember the Terry Scheinbo case?
Frazer Rice (10:17)
I sure do, so I’m dating myself right along with you.
Johanna C. David (10:19) – Long Term Health Care
All right, so we’re in the same boat. But for our listeners, those of you who may or may not remember Terry Shifo, it was very sad. This was a young woman, I believe she might’ve been in her 30s, who suffered an injury. And as a result of the injury, it caused some serious issues with her brain, okay? For lack of a better word, she was completely incapacitated. She was on machines. She was basically a vegetable. I mean, I don’t like to use that word, so I apologize. But she was married.
And so there was a fight between her husband. She did not have a healthcare proxy. So her husband, after some time, wanted to disconnect her because he felt that she would not want to live in that state. Her parents wanted to keep her alive. And so they ended up going to court and fighting. This poor woman was on a ventilator, on machines, on breathing machines between 1990 and 2005 when the court finally intervened and allowed her husband to… disconnect her. So she was in a vegetative state from 1990 to 2005.
Frazer Rice (11:26)
Well, which aside from the moral sort of quandary around whether to sort of pull the plug or not, mean, for, one of the considerations is that it’s just unbelievably expensive to maintain that kind of healthcare. And I’m sure that was a big consideration.
Johanna C. David (11:31) – Powers of Attorney
Yeah, absolutely. I’m not saying one or the other is right. But the point is her husband had one idea, her parents had another idea. And so they, you know, they took it up to the highest court, you know, revolving around the right to die. You know, if this young woman had had a health care proxy and a living will, she could have explained, hey, this is what I would want in this situation. This is the person that’s going to be in charge, you know, and it would not have been a fight.
Frazer Rice (12:09)
One thing that I’ve been telling clients and actually have some personal experience with this is to make sure that ⁓ these documents, the power of attorney and the healthcare proxy are updated ⁓ periodically. And I don’t necessarily mean changed, but ⁓ to make sure that the date at which they’re executed is recent. The intersection between people and the healthcare industrial complex is often times awful. ⁓
Johanna C. David (12:36) – Dealing with Hospitals
Absolutely.
Frazer Rice (12:38)
If you’re the hospital and you’re not sure whether the documents are in force or not, or whether it was signed under duress or incapacity, that creates all sorts of issues. Here is my comment alongside that really good example. Make sure that those estate planning documents are updated. Then to probably have HIPAA release forms and even establish a relationship with the hospital or the healthcare provider as best as possible because you could be saving yourself a lot of damage in operating.
Johanna C. David (13:05) – More on Proxies – Common Mistakes
Absolutely, absolutely. I agree with you 100%. These documents can be your saving grace, can literally be your lifeline. I agree with you with having HIPAA release is very, very important in your healthcare proxy. Yes, I always tell people to look at their documents at least every three years or so, like you said, not necessarily that you have to change it, but just take a look, make sure that this is still what you want. This still reflects your wishes, right? These people that you’ve named, they’re still the right people.
We know life changes, things happen. So they’re still the right people that you want. And of course, again, making sure that these documents are updated when they need to be. So I do agree with you, Frazier.
Frazer Rice (13:36)
That’s right. Yeah, that’s just sort of, I think, a good ⁓ rule of thumb just generally in terms of reviewing the documents and so on. That three years, I think at most five, circumstances change, friends come in and out, your kids have kids, you get married, all that stuff. All of those different life events merit a review of these types of documents.
Johanna C. David (14:00)
Yeah, that’s good. Absolutely, absolutely. I agree with you 100%.
Frazer Rice (14:16)
So maybe take us through a situation where ⁓ people have heard a lot about trusts and whether they’re appropriate or whether it’s for me, I’ve got a will, do I need something else that’s more durable or ⁓ maybe a revocable trust that might help avoid probate or that type of thing. Maybe take us through an example where that might be a good situation.
Johanna C. David (14:36) – Further Reasons for Estate Planning
Sure, sure. So, you know, one of the other mistakes to avoid is, you know, and I’m going to tie in trust here, is transferring assets to our kids. I mean, listen, I remember when I was growing up, my parents would say, you know, not knowing better, not knowing any better would say, hey, you know, when you and your siblings grow up, we’re going to transfer the house to you.
We’re going to put the house in your name. We’re going to put assets in your name. And because they thought that that was a way to protect their assets from long-term care or whatever it might be, that was a way to avoid probate. And so I’ll give you a very good example, and then we’ll go through what could have been done to make this better.
Another Client
So another client that I will never forget again when I was a young attorney, this woman came into the office and she had a brownstone in Brooklyn. Okay. Now we’re talking maybe 15 years ago at the time the brownstone was already worth well over a million dollars. It may have even been 2 million. It was in a historic neighborhood and considered a historic building. And so she had this brownstone. She was a widow. Her husband had passed away and they had one son.
He was 45 years old. He was married, living in Atlanta, had no children. So when her husband died, she said to the son, listen, I’m gonna just put the house in your name, right? If anything happens to me, if I get sick, I don’t want them to take the house. If I pass away, the house is already yours. And so she transfers the house to him, okay? And at 45 years of age, he has a massive heart attack and dies. All right, so mom is alive, son dies. Her only child, he had no children. He was married. So I’ll ask you, which is like, would ask our, you know, our audience, who owns mom’s house now?
Frazer Rice (16:24)
Hmm, I see storm clouds on the horizon here.
Johanna C. David (16:27)- Estate Planning Mistakes and How They Apply
The daughter in law. Yes. Exactly, the daughter in law. And so it was a situation, it was a very sad situation because the daughter in law now owned the home and she would not let her mother in law even live there. She said to her, listen, you have to leave because my husband’s at an unexpected leave. We have a mortgage, we have bills, we have this, we have that. So I need the money. She put the house on the market.
And I was in a position where this woman wanted to hire us to negotiate with the daughter. She even said, like, listen, she was in tears. She said, but this is my house. My husband and I worked hard for this. But I explained to her why it was no longer her house. And not only that, but she even agreed to pay her daughter-in-law rent.
Frazer Rice (17:13)
Gosh.
Johanna C. David (17:13) – Worst Case Planning Scenario
Right? This woman is at least, I don’t know, maybe 80 at the time. Okay? So she’s saying, look, please just let me live in my house. I’ve lived in this house for 30, whatever it is, some odd years at this point. This is where I got married. I raised my child. Please let me live in the house. I’ll even pay you rent. Right? So you have money to take care of what you need. Daughter-in-law said, nope. I need the household. She put it on the market. Mom is out on the street. And she had to go rent an apartment somewhere.
Frazer Rice (17:40)
Oh gosh, stories like that, it…
Johanna C. David (17:43) – Dangers
It’s heartbreaking. It’s heartbreaking and I will never forget her. She came into my office three times, Frazer, once by herself, but she just couldn’t believe what I was saying. She came in again with a friend, she came with a cousin, you know, and I explained the same thing over and over again. It was just, it was a heartbreaking estate planning mistake. And it still is, it still is today when I tell that story. All because she thought she was doing the right thing.
Frazer Rice (18:06)
Yeah, well, and sometimes people try to get around that by giving half of the property to somebody else. That’s not necessarily foolproof either.
Johanna C. David (18:16) – Asset Protection and Estate Planning
Yeah, absolutely because so so let’s even if your child does not pass away, right? Many of us don’t want to think about that. That’s, know, most of us that are parents, that’s our biggest nightmare. And there are people that don’t want to think about it. That’s fine.
But what if your child is going through a divorce, a bankruptcy or something like that? Your house is now in their name and therefore is an asset. I’ve also seen people where they transfer their home or a part of their home, like you said, half of their home over to their son or daughter.
Now that son or daughter is going through a nasty divorce or going through bankruptcy. And now guess what? They’re sharing the house. That’s up for grabs.
Frazer Rice (18:50)
That’s right.
Johanna C. David (18:51) – Avoiding Estate Planning Mistakes with Trusts
Right? So the way to avoid that is by creating a trust. And so if this woman, for example, had put her home in a trust, for example, a revocable trust, let’s say, she would still own the house. She would still have the right to live there. But she would ensure that if she passed away, the house would automatically go to her son with what we call a step up in cost basis. This means that the son would inherit it for the value on the date of her death, right?
So she could do a revocable trust. It goes directly to her son upon her death. But that trust would say, if my son dies before me, the house goes to whomever, right? When I die. So she may have wanted it to go to maybe her family members, right? Her cousins, her nieces, her nephews, or whomever. It would not have ended up with her daughter-in-law which was a massive estate planning mistake- both current and future.
Frazer Rice (19:14)
That’s right.
Johanna C. David (19:40) – Avoiding Probate and Other Planning Goals
Creating trust. Now there’s also people that say to me, okay, well, it avoids probate, but what about if I, you know, want to protect my house from a nursing home? I have to put it in my kid’s name.
That’s not true either. You can create what we call a Medicaid asset protection trust, where you put the home in the trust, you’re allowed to live there. It is an irrevocable trust, but in the state of New York, you still retain the right to change a trust. These are the beneficiaries. And the home can be protected from long-term care issues and other estate planning mistakes.
I think that that’s also one of the biggest mistakes that people make is not getting the right advice, not seeing an attorney and not planning for the future. And I know I’m taking up a lot of my time here, but if I could just, can I squeeze in one more quick example?
Yeah, you know, so I was growing up, I grew up in Brooklyn. I’m a Brooklyn girl and I grew up in Brooklyn and I distinctly remember a good friend of my parents at the time. They were a little bit older and the husband had to go into a nursing home.
Frazer Rice (20:31)
No, please do. Examples are great.
Johanna C. David (20:49) – Poor Titling and a Another Planning Error
And so he did and they owned a home right on our block. And so when the husband went to the nursing home, they kept on calling the wife saying, you have to pay us, you have to pay us, you have to pay us, know, thousands of dollars a month that she didn’t have.
So she thought that the right thing to do was and they said to her, you know, we’re going to come after your house or whatever have you. First of all, that is not true. They cannot put a spouse out on the street, right? You can’t come after your house if somebody’s living there. They can’t kick your spouse out.
Anyway, the woman was led to believe that she ends up selling her house, moving in with her daughter to pay for her husband’s nursing home care. It eats up most of the proceeds from the home. And not only does he die shortly thereafter that she ends up dying too. And their kids inherit nothing.
Frazer Rice (21:40)
And with a couple of conversations ahead of that, they could have had a much different, much better outcome.
Johanna C. David (21:45) – Avoiding a Planning Mistake
Absolutely, absolutely. Just getting the right advice. And listen, I always say that we can always do something in terms of if you are facing a situation where maybe a nursing home or home care services or long-term care is imminent, get the right advice. See an elder law attorney. Because we can at least steer you in the right direction. ⁓
A lot of people don’t do that and they think that they know how the system works, right? A lot of people say, well, I’m gonna lose my house anyway. What do I need to worry about estate planning or any mistakes? I might as well just give it to them or sell it, you know, and then, and so, ⁓ you know, unfortunately, you know, I’ve seen people lose assets, you know, their hard earned money, their nest eggs, so to speak, ⁓ and then their loved ones, their children and grandchildren inherit nothing.
Frazer Rice (22:32)
I think too, one thing when people are selecting people to trust and talk to from an attorney perspective, I find that estate planning and elder care are extremely related, but very different practices. And so I think it’s a good, maybe a good practice for people if they’re going down this road ⁓ to ask the attorney if they have experience in both the estate planning and the elder care, because it’s one thing to deal with administer wills and trusts and so on. It’s another to sort of
Johanna C. David (22:46)
Yes.
Frazer Rice (23:02)
in a sort of deal with the government program and everything that’s involved with that.
Johanna C. David (23:07) – Elder Law and Estate Planning Mistakes
Absolutely, absolutely. I happen to have a background in both elder law and estate planning, but you’re right. ⁓ It is a different area of practice. And yes, they overlap. An elder law attorney can actually do a well-powered attorney in health care proxy. But not all estate planning attorneys ⁓ can walk you through that process of long-term care.
Frazer Rice (23:30)
I had personal experience with that. was family members who we had to navigate the elder care system. The estate planning was almost beside the point, but the elder care system, we really needed a sherpa to help us get through it because there were veterans benefits and Medicare, Medicaid, what can you access? How do you do this in a way that doesn’t lead away the assets unnecessarily? It’s money well spent to avoid these planning mistakes.
Johanna C. David (23:48) – 3 Estate Planning Errors
Yeah!
Frazer Rice (23:58)
To have someone smart on that front- top avoid the planning mistakes.
Johanna C. David (24:00)
Exactly, absolutely. listen, for those of us where that is not a concern, that’s fine- it won’t be a planning mistake. It’s still worth your while to see an estate planning attorney to discuss your will, your power of attorney, your health care proxy, whether a trust is appropriate for you or not. Right.
Depending on, you know, we were at the beginning of the conversation, you and I were just talking about the sunset and different things happening with tax laws. Right. You know, do we need to do some estate tax planning for you and avoid any mistakes?
It’s always worth your while to get the advice of an attorney, right, and to also speak to your financial advisor and things like that about getting these things in place because you don’t want your assets to end up in the wrong hands. Like I said, you know, your assets may end up with your sister-in-law’s ex-husband and things like that to happen.
Frazer Rice (24:47)
One thing just to dovetail on what you mentioned about the sunset. know a lot of people are hearing the federal government, the estate tax and all that, the exemptions are so high it doesn’t apply to me. I would tell people that are in states like New York or Illinois, Maryland, other places that the ⁓ state tax or inheritance tax if you’re in one of those states,
That’s something you can creep into very quickly. In New York, I guess it’s about $7 million. That’s a lot of money. But for some people who’ve been living in neighborhoods that have gentrified and it started out as one thing, all of a sudden they’ve got this asset. They may start creeping up toward that exemption. I think it’s worth having that conversation no matter where you are, just in case.
Johanna C. David (25:23) – Three Estate Planning Mistakes
Thanks. I agree, I agree. And I think that especially, you know, people like you said that are in those kinds of neighborhoods where all of a sudden they have this asset that’s worth so much, you know, tend to undervalue it. You know, tend to think, it’s not gonna be worth that much, but all of a sudden it’s marked as a historical site. You know, all of a sudden you have a brownstone in Brooklyn that’s worth a few million dollars. ⁓ So I guess I agree with you.
Frazer Rice (26:00)
Terrific. So as we wind down here, ⁓ maybe take us, wind us down with a couple of things to think about as people are going through this process.
Johanna C. David (26:10) – Three Estate Planning Mistakes
Sure, so a couple of things to think about as you’re going through this process is, know, what is your family dynamic? You know, where would you like your assets to end up upon your passing? But before you even get there, just think about some of the basics, right?
Estate planning is always gonna start with the basics, and then we build on that if we need to especially to avoid mistakes. So in the event that you were sick or incapacitated, who can handle your affairs for you financially? Who can speak for you in a medical emergency? ⁓ If you have young children, you know, who would be the guardians for your children in the event that you and your spouse or you your significant other passed away?
I would at least start the ball with that, right? And then maybe also having a good understanding of what your assets are. Do you have beneficiary designations on those assets? So I think that that’s a good place to start.
Frazer Rice (27:00) Summary of Estate Planning Mistakes to Avoid
Perfect. So wills, powers of attorney, healthcare proxies, and make sure your beneficiary designations line up with what you want. Joanna, how do we find you if someone wants to reach you and find out more?
Johanna C. David (27:04) – Three Estate Planning Mistakes
Right. Absolutely. Sure, so I am a partner at Fort Shelley Deacon in Toronto. I’m in Uniondale, New York. I can be reached at my email address jdavid at fortchellelaw.com or at our phone number 516-248-1700. That’s 516-248-1700. And again, I’m at Fort Shelley Deacon in Toronto in Uniondale, New York.
Frazer Rice (27:42)
That’ll all be in the show notes. thanks so much for being on.
Johanna C. David (27:45)
Thank you so much. appreciate your time. Thanks for having me.